Marilou van Golstein Brouwers is an impact investing pioneer with more than 30 years of experience in developing global impact investment funds. Marilou was Chair of the Management Board of Triodos Investment Management and, until 2019, a member of the Board of Directors of the GIIN (Global Impact Investing Network). She was a key partner of Pymwymic for many years and has recently founded her own consultancy, which she runs alongside her ongoing other activities. 

Lisette Schuitemaker is an author on personal and spiritual development. Previously, she was Chair of the Board of Social Venture Network Europe, the Findhorn Foundation, and the Center for Human Emergence NL. She has been a friend of Pymwymic since its inception and invests in impact through various funds, as well as directly in social enterprises that focus on system change and education.

In this introductory interview, Lisette and Marilou talk about impact investing and the project they started together: a book entitled 'The Inner Life of Money'. The idea for the book comes from one of the co-founders of PYM, the late Margaret McGovern, who tried to understand what prevents people from using their money for their ideals. As part of their research to answer this question, Marilou and Lisette have put together an in-depth study in which they collected information from people of all ages, worldwide.

What makes someone an impact investor?
Marilou: There is a difference between being an impact investor and impact investing. At the GIIN, this was even a much-discussed topic! For me, being an impact investor is a commitment. I don't think you can call yourself an impact investor if impact investing is only a small part of your portfolio, while the majority of your investments generate a negative impact.

Lisette: I agree with that, but impact investing is also part of a larger conversation about money. How do our ideals, and our desire to contribute, shape our financial decisions? For me, impact investing is about making a conscious choice to put your energy into something you believe in. What this looks like in practice in an investment portfolio is diverse and personal, and can take many forms in daily life.

In recent years, there has been enormous growth in purpose-driven companies. Do you think this focus will eliminate the need for impact investing as a separate form of investing?
Marilou: Of course, it would be ideal if all companies and investments generated a positive impact, and I think this acceleration is definitely underway! The younger generation is pushing for impact, and the banks are responding to that. I also see that institutional investors, such as pension funds, which are still very much dominated by financial returns, are implementing changes from within through their younger employees. Personally, I think the growing gap between the real economy and the stock market means we are heading for a huge shift, one that will make us think about what we really value.

Lisette: I remember, many years ago, when I first heard a conventional bank talk about sustainability, I didn't believe them. That's different today. The conversation about impact is no longer a niche, and those advocating for a holistic perspective are no longer seen as naïve. A friend of mine recently said: "change comes slowly and suddenly," and that's exactly how I think about this shift to "finance for purpose" – it's going too slowly, but one day it will suddenly be the norm.

What major shifts in thinking can be attributed to your generation?
Marilou: I grew up in the 60s and joined my first protest when I was 15 years old. We were seeking freedom and wanted to change the established order! So I think that generation brought a 'liberating energy' into the conversation about money.

Lisette: My parents were from the post-war generation. They aimed to rebuild society and saw business as a way to alleviate poverty. I am a typical baby boomer, so yes, there was/is certainly still a belief in the power of business among my generation. At the same time, after the 60s, some of us also began to thoroughly question traditional business models and conventional economic thinking. I think my generation initiated the first major conversations about systemic change on a global scale.

What are your thoughts on impact investing versus paying more taxes?
Lisette: I see it as an honor and a duty to pay taxes, but I would like to see a change in what we tax. A good friend of mine and leader in this field, Eckart Wintzen, introduced the concept of Ex'tax – taxing the use of natural resources while reducing the tax burden on labor. It's a truly inventive way to use taxes to protect the earth and inspire the people on it. Tax for impact!

Marilou: We need taxes, for the common good and for the redistribution of resources. But ultimately, with taxes, you can't steer or direct as an individual. I believe that specific change is best brought about by individual investments, because that is a more groundbreaking force. But I agree with Lisette, there are so many opportunities for reform in taxation itself. I love the idea of a basic income, for example.

For many, money is a complicated subject, so much so that we often avoid it. Your book aims to do the opposite. What stands out to you most about the (cultural) lack of transparency around money?
Marilou: There is a lot of fear around transparency. In the many years I've worked in impact, I've come to see how unconscious this makes us about the way money moves through us. We hide from others and from ourselves. Many are afraid their friendships will change, that their safety will be at risk, or that they can't handle the responsibility. So we don't ask the important questions, such as: what is actually being financed with the money in our savings account, or is my bank investment congruent with my values? Even in our survey, we notice this: people are a bit hesitant to fill it out. Maybe they're a little 'afraid' of what they'll find once they allow themselves to look? In this world, it takes courage to openly share what you have and what you do with it.

To collect data for the book, you conducted a survey. What have been the most interesting findings so far?
Lisette: I think, very surprisingly, it has activated people's thinking about money in ways we didn't expect. It's not so much a survey, but rather an invitation to reflect on your relationship with money. Of course, we're still working on it, but so far we've noticed that more women than men have come forward. We think this may be related to the inspiring Women's Wealth Matters sessions that Corinne Heijn facilitated for PYM. These sessions have created a safe space for many women to share their money stories and connect to initiatives like ours.

Do you have the same ideas about money?
Lisette: We're figuring that out. When Margaret's husband, Frank van Beuningen, asked us to do this project, we actually didn't know each other that well. Fortunately, conducting the first round of 30 interviews together over Zoom contributed a lot to that! More generally, my wake-up call for impact investing came later than Marilou's, and I come to this book as an heir, while Marilou is an expert pioneer in this field. I think our different perspectives will enrich the book, just as they have enriched our conversations.

Marilou: We share ideals and a similar outlook on life, but we have different (professional) backgrounds, which, I agree, only adds to the conversation. It makes it even more exciting to delve deeper into what has shaped our individual ways of thinking about money, how we've chosen to apply our worldview, and how we see the emerging future. I can't wait to see how it all unfolds in the book!